NICOLE WINFIELD, of The Associated Press, speaks with Pope Francis in a wide-ranging interview which also covered gun violence, relations with China and homosexuality…
Vatican City
AP
Pope Francis says he hasn’t considered issuing norms to regulate future papal resignations and plans to continue for as long as he can as bishop of Rome, despite a wave of criticism from some top-ranking conservative cardinals and bishops about his papal priorities.
In his first interview since the 31st December death of retired Pope Benedict XVI, Francis addressed his critics, his health and the next phase of his pontificate, which marks its 10th anniversary in March without Benedict’s shadow in the background.
Pope Francis pauses during an interview with The Associated Press at The Vatican, on Tuesday, 24th January, 2023. Pope Francis said he hasn’t even considered issuing norms to regulate future papal resignations and says he plans to continue on for as long as he can as bishop of Rome, despite a wave of attacks against him by some top-ranked cardinals and bishops. PICTURE: AP Photo/Domenico Stinellis.
Francis’ comments, delivered Tuesday at the Vatican hotel where he lives, came at a particularly difficult time, as the pontiff navigates conservative opposition to his insistence on making the Catholic Church a more welcoming, inclusive place – criticism that he attributed to the equivalent of a 10-year itch of his papacy.
“You prefer that they don’t criticise, for the sake of tranquility,” Francis told The Associated Press. “But I prefer that they do it because that means there’s freedom to speak.”
“You prefer that they don’t criticise, for the sake of tranquility. But I prefer that they do it because that means there’s freedom to speak.”
– Pope Francis
Some commentators believe Francis might be freer to maneuver now following Benedict’s death. Others suggest that any sort of ecclesial peace that had reigned was over and that Francis is now more exposed to critics, deprived of the moderating influence Benedict played in keeping the conservative Catholic fringe at bay.
Francis acknowledged the knives were out, but seemed almost sanguine about it.
“I wouldn’t relate it to Benedict, but because of the wear-and-tear of a government of 10 years,” Francis said of his critics. He reasoned that his election was initially greeted with a sense of “surprise” about a South American pope. Then came discomfort “when they started to see my flaws and didn’t like them,” he said of his critics.
“The only thing I ask is that they do it to my face because that’s how we all grow, right?” he added.
The pontiff, meanwhile, said he was in good shape, that a slight bone fracture in his knee from a fall had healed without surgery and was ready to get on with his agenda.
“I’m in good health. For my age, I’m normal,” the 86-year-old pontiff said, though he revealed that diverticulosis, or bulges in his intestinal wall, had “returned.” Francis had 33 centimetres of his large intestine removed in 2021 because of what the Vatican said was inflammation that caused a narrowing of his colon.
“I might die tomorrow, but it’s under control. I’m in good health,” he said with his typical wry sense of humour.
Pope Francis speaks during an interview with The Associated Press at The Vatican, on Tuesday, 24th January, 2023. According to the Pope, the arms industry has brought untold death and destruction to the world. “The world is obsessed with weapons,” he said. PICTURE: AP Photo/Andrew Medichini.
Speculation about Francis’ health and the future of his pontificate has only risen following the death of Benedict, whose 2013 resignation marked a turning point for the Catholic Church since he was the first pontiff in six centuries to retire.
Francis praised Benedict as an “old-fashioned gentleman,” and said of his death: “I lost a dad.”
“For me, he was a security. In the face of a doubt, I would ask for the car and go to the monastery and ask,” he said of his visits to Benedict’s retirement home for counsel. “I lost a good companion.”
Some cardinals and canon lawyers have said the Vatican must issue norms to regulate future papal retirements to prevent the few hiccups that occurred during Benedict’s unexpectedly long retirement, during which he remained a point of reference for some conservatives and traditionalists who refused to recognize Francis’ legitimacy.
From the name Benedict chose (Pope Emeritus) to the (white) cassock he wore to his occasional public remarks (on priestly celibacy and sex abuse), these commentators said norms must make clear there is only one reigning pope for the sake of the unity of the church.
Francis said issuing such norms hadn’t even occurred to him.
“I’m telling you the truth,” he said, adding that the Vatican needed more experience with papal retirements before setting out to “regularize or regulate” them.
Francis has said Benedict “opened the door” to future resignations, and that he too would consider stepping down. He repeated Tuesday that if he were to resign he’d be called the bishop emeritus of Rome and would live in the residence for retired priests in the diocese of Rome.
Francis said Benedict’s decision to live in a converted monastery in the Vatican Gardens was a “good intermediate solution,” but that future retired popes might want to do things differently.
“He was still ‘enslaved’ as a pope, no?” Francis said. “Of the vision of a pope, of a system. ‘Slave’ in the good sense of the word: In that he wasn’t completely free, as he would have liked to have returned to his Germany and continued studying theology.”
By one calculation, Benedict’s death removes the main obstacle to Francis resigning, since the prospect of two pensioner popes was never an option. But Francis said Benedict’s death hadn’t altered his calculations. “It didn’t even occur to me to write a will,” he said.
As for his own near-term future, Francis emphasised his role as “bishop of Rome” as opposed to pontiff and said of his plans: “Continue being bishop, Bishop of Rome in communion with all the bishops of the world.” He said he wanted to put to rest the concept of the papacy as a power player or papal “court”.
Francis also addressed the criticism from cardinals and bishops that burst into public in the weeks since Benedict’s death, saying it’s unpleasant – “like a rash that bothers you a bit” – but that is better than keeping it under wraps. Francis has been attacked for years by conservatives and traditionalists who object to his priorities of social justice issues such as poverty, migration and the environment.
“If it’s not like this, there would be a dictatorship of distance, as I call it, where the emperor is there and no one can tell him anything. No, let them speak because…criticism helps you to grow and improve things,” he said.
The first salvo in the latest wave of attacks came from Benedict’s longtime secretary, Archbishop Georg Gaenswein, who revealed the bad blood that accumulated over the last 10 years in a tell-all memoir published in the days after Benedict’s funeral.
In one of the most explosive sections, Gaenswein revealed that Benedict learned by reading the Vatican daily newspaper L’Osservatore Romano that Francis had reversed one of the former pope’s most significant liturgical decisions and re-imposed restrictions on celebrating the Old Latin Mass.
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A few days later, the Vatican was rattled anew by the death of another conservative stalwart, Cardinal George Pell, and revelations that Pell was the author of a devastating memorandum that circulated last year that called the Francis pontificate a “disaster” and a “catastrophe”.
The memo, which was initially published under the pseudonym “Demos,” listed what it considered problems in the Vatican under Francis, from its precarious finances to the pontiff’s preaching style, and issued bullet points for what a future pope should do to fix them.
Francis acknowledged Pell’s criticism but still sang his praises for having been his “right-hand man” on reforming the Vatican’s finances as his first economy minister.
“Even though they say he criticised me, fine, he has the right. Criticism is a human right,” Francis said. But he added: “He was a great guy. Great.”
OTHER TAKEAWAYS:
Pope Francis lamented that the use of guns by civilians to defend themselves is becoming a “habit”.
In an interview on Tuesday with The Associated Press, the pontiff, who has frequently criticised the arms industry, was asked about the large number of guns in civilian hands and frequent massacres in the United States. Francis expressed concern about how recourse to guns has become “habit”.
“I say when you have to defend yourself, all that’s left is to have the elements to defend yourself. Another thing is how that need to defend oneself lengthens, lengthens, and becomes a habit,’’ Francis said. “Instead of making the effort to help us live, we make the effort to help us kill.”
Francis has denounced the arms industry as trafficking in death. Francis said he wants to draw attention to the problem by saying: “Please, let’s say something that will stop this.”
The AP asked the question about the proliferation of guns among civilians after recent days saw several shootings, including in California.
Here are some other key takeaways from the interview:
ON “PATIENCE” WITH CHINA”
Saying “we must walk patiently in China,” Pope Francis views continued dialogue with Beijing as the guiding principle in his efforts to safeguard his flock, who are a small minority in the Asian nation.
The AP asked what comes next in the diplomatic overtures between the countries.
“We are taking steps,” Francis replied. “Each case [of a bishop’s nomination] is looked at with a magnifying lens.” The pontiff added that “that’s the main thing, the dialogue doesn’t break.”
As for Chinese authorities, “sometimes they are a little closed, sometimes not,” Francis said.
The Pope sidestepped a question about how the Vatican’s relationship with Taiwan affects the dialogue. The Holy See is one of the few states to maintain formal ties with Taiwan instead of with China.
Francis has been criticised by more conservative factions of the Catholic Church for a 2018 agreement with Beijing over the appointment of bishops in China, given how that country’s Communist authorities have at times imprisoned priests. Among his harshest critics is Cardinal Joseph Zen, the Bishop Emeritus of Hong Kong.
In the interview, Francis called Zen, who is 91, a “charming old man”, and a “tender soul”. He recounted how, when the cardinal came to Rome this month for the funeral of Pope Benedict XVI, the pontiff invited him to the Vatican hotel where Francis lives. In front of the pope’s private study is a statue depicting Our Lady of Sheshan. Francis said when the cardinal saw it, ”he began to cry, like a child.”
Zen was arrested last year after he fell afoul of Hong Kong authorities over his participation in a now-silenced democracy movement.
ON HOMOSEXUALITY
Pope Francis has stepped up his criticism of discrimination against members of the LGBTQ community. He called laws criminalising homosexuals unjust but reiterated Catholic Church teaching that homosexual activity is sinful.
Bantering with himself, Francis articulated the position: “It’s not a crime. Yes, but it’s a sin. Fine, but first let’s distinguish between a sin and a crime.”
ON SEX ABUSE CRISIS
The Pope suggested that East Timor’s Nobel Peace Prize-winning independence hero was indeed allowed to retire early rather than face prosecution or punishment following sex abuse allegations.
Francis also denied he had a role in deciding the case of a famous Jesuit artist whose seemingly preferential treatment cast doubt on the Vatican’s commitment to cracking down on abuse.
He acknowledged the Catholic Church still had a long way to go to deal with the problem.
ON GERMAN REFORM EFFORT
The pontiff warned there’s a risk that a reform process in the German Catholic Church over calls for married priests and other possible liberalising moves might become harmfully “ideological”.
